The 5.0 Recipe?
 

I'm fairly clued-in on what it takes to get to certain levels with an LS1, but have no idea when it comes to a Fox body. And since it's been around for so long I know there is alot of misinformation floating around out there, especially on the local level.

In general with an LS1 you can put a cam and a stall in it and have an 11 second car. I'm looking through Summit as well as some Mustang retailers online and see so many different options for a build on a 302. What are some of the reputable manufacturers out there?

What is a good intake? What are good headers, H or X pipe, and exhaust? Intake manifolds, heads, and cams? What about aftermarket blocks and stroker assemblies? I know turbo and nitrous setups depend on the whole setup and are often custom jobs, but what about supercharger setups, which off-the-shelf SC kits perform?

When I say good I'm not talking about the absolute top dollar stuff that you're just buying a name, I'm talking about the quality parts available for Ford's little 302 that can really make a car move as long as the rest of the car is well put together and up to the task. Thanks for any help guys. Looking very forward to gaining some more knowledge on 5.0 performance.

One issue that I see with alota 'ford 302' people. Is the plethora of parts out on the after market. Alot more decisions have to be made than there is with an LS based car. Someone wants an intake for their LS1? Lets see here......you can buy an LS6, FAST or LSX whatever you wanna call it, or those new carb'd ones. Thats 3 choices......total :eek2: Trickflow alone makes 4 different intakes for a 302. Edelbrock makes about 4 different intakes. Ford makes 2. Holley makes one. Theres multiple other various 'box style' intakes you can buy. Theres 'spyder' intakes that resemble the new carbd intakes being made for LS1's. Thats a shitload of intakes to choose from.

AFR makes 4 different heads for a SBF. You can buy all kinds of different versions of Trickflow's heads for a SBF. Edelbrock makes numerious different head verations of their stuff. Then you have the beloved GT40 heads. Which come in multiple versions. Cast Iron and Alum. It goes on and on!

Heads for LS cars....just port ur stock ones or buy some ported LS6. Something along those lines. Wow...tuff decisions their.

The Problem is decisions! To really get the 'most' outa a 5liter, more than the average guy, you gotta dig a little deeper than LS car guys do. Prime example, earlier this year I helped out a real close bud pick out a cam for his 00WS6. We went to MTI's website. I said "hey look at that R cam. That looks freakin sweet!" He said fuk yea! Lets get it. He makes decent power, hes happy and thats the end of that story. Yea........it doesnt necessary work like that for SBF, for MOST people.
Skiming along the periphery of the 302 world, you might think that box stock GT40 heads and an E cam from Ford is the baddest shit ever made. This could not be farther from the truth.

Heres what I would consider basic info to an LS 'guy' and Im just throwin this at a wim so anyone else feel free to add/complain. I dont have a problem with good convo.
Heads- AFR, Trickflow,Edel (again dig deeper.......stock twisted wedge from trickflow on a 13:1, 347 with a solid cam would not be the best choice. But some stageIII tfs high ports from TEA would.) :drive:
Cam - This topic is so vast for 302's...start another thread. need more info on combo.
Intake - same as above. Combo, Combo, intentions for car, Combo.....did I mention combo?
Internals - Same as LS shit just minus Lunati. Dont think they make stuff for SBF's, but I could be wrong? Eagle,Scat JE and theres this company called probe that does good shit.
Stock production 302 blocks are highly debaited in some arenas. Some Have lived with high HP #'s, the majority has failed. Example, this is why I took the dope off my Small H/C car cuz its a crapshoot and I dont have the green for a 2k block from Dart or Ford at the moment. Check out their sites, good stuff. Once ur at/above 500fwhp....well.....Ill let you decide that one

Anderson Ford Motorsport makes good air inlet systems.

My advice, research..more than ur average person... before you randomly start swiping the credit card. Save up ur coin and spend wisely.

Thanks for the reply Thoroughbred, very good info.

Credit isn't even an option, and if I'm spending my cash, it will be wisely. So I'll definitely be digging deep to get the best combo for my buck. I know Total Engine Airflow knows their stuff so I thought about getting with them when the time comes and having them do a set of heads and a cam for my given goals (very good streetability, able to pass emissions, and I wouldn't mind a little lope), which ultimately is a 347ci supercharged setup (is there a standard rotating assembly like Eagle for this, and also is the Vortech SC pretty much the standard or does another company make a better one like ATI does for the LS1)?. I'm sure TEA could also recommend an intake manifold for the setup as well.

You are correct though, GT40 heads and an E cam are all I ever see or hear about 5.0s and I know there is probably much better out there, hence this post.

Obviously exhaust (mainly mufflers) are subjective, but are there any proven performers in the way of headers and H or X pipes (in the LS1 world most all headers are the same as long as you're talking long tubes, and there are a few quality X and Y pipes that are quality pieces). Mufflers are for the users to decide as we all like something different on that front.

Save up some money and get a combo from TEA or someone along those lines would be a good choice. They can get you covered.

Basic blowers would be without question an 'S' Trim from Vorteq. Then theres Vorteq's 'T' Trim. Prochargers P1SC and D1SC are awesome from what I hear but someone else is going to have to fill you in here, as I have never owned a blower.

I've had Bassani LT's and multiple Bassani X pipes on my car and they make great products. A little pricer then some but good stuff. Also have had your basic BBK shorty headers which IMO can not be beating for their price (on a weekend warrior/daily driver, not some all out 'race car') Had BBK H pipes too which are decent. Ive had friends use MAC exhaust parts that were good peices.

I know Eagle has 347 kits, but I do not know if they make a kit for a boosted app. Im sure they do, their 'assemblies' link isnt working on their site right now. Check around for that. Also look here http://www.probeindustries.com/

Ive done well with junk parts.

The main point I was trying to get across was research. From your sig you seem to have a well MATCHED combo. Unlike turds you see out street racing their stock 302 with mufflers and a TFS-R intake.

Like stated above, you have to do your reserch. I have a lt-1 and there are no parts for that compared to the 5.0 that I have. If you want supercharged I would go with vortech. For some reason the Ford is hard to tune w/ the blow though design or the ati. If you go N/A there are so many parts to choose from that you can get cought up in that "new part of the month" crap that happens and your car will run like crap. I love watching people come in and dyno with that hot new stuff that is going to make 500 hp and they lay down 280 hp. The combo has to work together. I personaly went with all trick flow and Im very happy with the end product. They helped me set up for all the right parts. It all depends on what you want out of the car. I personally have an all out drag car so that is what it is set up for but I built it to where I could put a smaller cam and have a nice street/stip car.

I knew in advance that research and combo was what having the end product be something nice is what it's all about. The question is, with so much misinformation out there where do I go to do the research? Just looking at a nice street-friendly stroked 347 build with a Vortec supercharger on it. Looking at Sukkoi's setup gives me some good ideas and I wouldn't mind having that kind of power at all. :) Getting somewhere between 450-500 rwhp and rwtq would be my goals (which with a 347 and a blower you wouldn't think would be that big of a problem). 500+ HP would be awesome if I could get the right combo, but again I'll give up some power for streetability (keep in mind I drive a 4000 RPM stalled & cammed Trans Am and consider it to be very streetable, but this 'Stang build will have to pass the tailpipe sniffer test so I cant go too crazy with the cam selection).

Get a good forged Bottom end(D.S.S.,Eagle,Ohio Crankshaft). Pick a head from one of the big guys ( Trick Flow,AFR,Ford racing) and take with which ever to find out what intake would work best with that head. Get someone to build a custom cam to meet what you need for the good old sniffer. Then bolt it together and tear ass though Nash. Tn

Good #'s can easily be made with a blower/turbo with a set up like Sukk's. One of the mods in this section wifes car used to be set up close to Sukk's and was getting close to 10's in the 1/4 down here in Tejas.

Theres alot of bogus info on some sites out there, but Im not goona get into that. IMO....the 347 you want with something like a AFR185/205 or Vic Jr head, good cam, decent blower blower 500rwhp is cake.

My opinion with a doing an FI 5.0L is this. There is no point in spending money on a motor if your going with production block. Even the DSS level 20 junk will split just as fast as an unprepped block. The stock rotating assemble in the 87-92 is plenty strong enough to handle all the block will take.

I have always run stock short-blocks, when I pop one I just pony up another $100 for a new one or dip into my stash.

If you just want a nice 450 rwhp 10 second ride I would suggest an S-Trim car with a good aluminum head (better for the street in IMO) and entry level intake (Performer or Cobra) and either and E cam with 1.7s or a TFS 1. Couple that with a good LT and a good fuel supply and some driving shoes and you have a very streetable probable 10 second ride.

Driving shoes, I like that. :D

Very good info guys. Glad to see my goals aren't going to be as tough to reach as I originally expected. This is definitely not going to be a max effort car. I just want a streetable, nice, fun car to drive around in that I can rip through some gears in as well (the Trans Am is and will always be a stalled auto car). And making enough power to trap 120+ in the 1/4 is just a nice side bonus. :D

:werd:

My motor is a 302 with GT40P heads bumped to 10.5:1 compression, flat-top forged pistons, X303 cam (.542 224/224) supporting fuel mods and full intake/exhaust, 1.6 aluminum RR's, and the company that built it rates it at 340/340 hp/tq based on a rwhp dyno of on of their motors at 290/290 whp/tq. Not bad really. It performs ok down low, but REALLY wakes up at 3500+ kinda has a LS1-esque powerband. I have been very satisfied with it so far.

Stock 5.0 block=good until 450hp
Stock rods=good for the stock block, same for the crank
stock heads=150cfm intake flow :(

GT40P heads with NO OTHER MODS are woth 25 at the tires as a rule.

just a few tidbits i found might be helpful

What is a good block that can safely handle higher power levels without costing an arm and a leg? Or what is involved in prepping a production block to handle the extra power?

prepping a stock production will be a waste of time and money. Lots of people have made good #'s with the 'sportsman' block from ford. That costs 800-900 somewhere around there new. You can pick em up used sometimes.
If you have the green...an 'R' block from Ford and a Sportsman from Dart are the way to go. But both of those are going to run you over 2k with purchasing and machine work. But breaking those just isnt an option.

Another option, a production 351 block outa an old F150/250 or various vans/cars is alot more beefy than production 302s. For an app like you are wanting......a stock ci 351 and a good blower will easily make the power you want. I know that seems extensive but its really not. You have to buy a new HB and flywheel (just like for a 302 stroker) a 351 specific intake (need to get a good matched intake for that 347 anyways) cylinder heads are interchangable. Need a different distributor (most people eventually upgrade to MSD shit for their 302's sooner or later) Different fuel lines (can cheaply be made with fuel lines hose bought at Autozone) A $50 powersteer,a/c bracket from Ford if you want to run that stuff. Waterpumps are the same. Cams cost the same. Stock Kmember fits 351's. Bellhousings are the same. Stock 351 blocks will hold what your wants no prob and are cheap! Just an idea their for ya. :)

like said, a sportsman or a 351 will do the trick.

Well your questions have pretty much been answered.

There are quite a few satisfied FTI(www.flowtechinduction.com) customers that have dealt with Ed Curtis and are making a little over 300 RWHP out of a stock 5.0 bottom end, with great driving and idle qualities. 300 hp doesn't sound like a ton, but in these cars its enough to get you into the 11's pretty easily. Throw forced induction or nitrous on top of that and you've got yourself a pretty stout combination.

The biggest thing is making sure your combination is matched. Having a HUGE cam on stock heads won't do much as far as making power goes. You need a nice balanced induction and exhaust to make the most efficient power and keep nice driveability.

As far as GT40 heads/E303 cam setups go, that was the first setup I EVER ran haha. I needed heads cheap and fast(stock head bolt broke somehow and warped the stock head) so I got a pair of GT40's, E-303 cam(for free), and an Explorer intake. Car made like 250 rwhp, about 40-50 more than stock, and ran great. Not the BEST setup, but if you're on a budget theres nothing wrong with porting a set of GT-40's or GT-40P's, having a nice custom ground cam setup for the heads, a Cobra/Explorer/Edelbrock intake, and a full exhaust system. I could see a setup like this making about 265-275 depending on the tune, altitude, and what kind of shape the stock bottom end is in.

Arron

The sportsman block is NOT stronger than a stock block, I do not care what ford says.

Bottom line, as much as it sucks, is that there are only 2 blocks worth spending money on, the Dart and the Man'o'War, with #1 being the more popular choice.

D.S.S. is a load of crap, girdles dont do a damn thing, sportsman blocks are not any stronger, "mexican" blocks and 69 351 blocks are about as hard to find as Dr. Phils penis, and anything else is a gimmick. The small block ford 302's weakest points are the lifter valley and the 2 bolt mains, no compony besides Dart and World products have produced blocks that have strengthened these two areas. Sure some parts might be stronger in a DSS or a sportsman, but is the lifter valley (that will almost alwayse be where a block breaks) any strong? No, it isn't.

Keep it under 500whp and the stocker should be ok, if you want more than that, do not waste money on anything short of a Dart block.

As far as your h/c/i recipe question,

According to flow numbers, the AFR 165's are the best flowing heads for a 302, at 250/185 @.500, now, the 185's outflow them obviously but a lot would say they are to big for a 302, maybe a 306 built to rev to 7000 or so, or a 331, but I tend to agree that 185's are a bit to big.

Also again by flow numbers, the edlebrock performer RPM flows the most out of the popular intakes, averaging about 220cfms between the 8 runners, the victory series will flow more but once again, is probobly to big for a 302 setup.

As far as cam, it is by far worth it to get a custom ground cam from Ed Curtis (flowtech inductions) or Jay Allen (I dunno), but if you want an off the shelf cam, the trick flow stage 1 camshaft is a great one for a 302.


The AFR165/RPM/FTI combo is the one I want to go with when the time comes, it has proven itself time and again and I don't think I have heard of that combo not breaking 300whp on stock shortblock. Well, thats assuming the car has the right bolt ons and a real tune.

So AFRs, a good intake, and a custom cam will only get you to break 300rwhp? What does a proper running stock 5.0 normally put down? So to get up into the 400-450rwhp range you're basically looking at a good set of heads, intake, custom cam, and some type of forced induction on a 302 setup correct?

You can probobly do it with "lesser" heads as well, but AFR 165's outflow Trick flow and edelbrock performers. And while it is only 300whp or so, you can go low 12's or even 11's with it. To get 400-450 on a 302 FI is the way to go. You can either run a vortech at around 8-10psi with HCI, or you can just go all boost. If you want 400+ with stock heads/cam/intake then a procharger is probobly a better bet, as the "kit" is intercooled and the head unit can make more boost than the strim, however the stock head gaskets and maybe even the head studs will not like 15-18psi very much.

Stock 5.0's put down like 210-220whp and 270-290wtq I believe, its not a lot.

I daily drive a 306 with 185's, that doesnt hit 7k...not even 6600....and not for one moment do I regret not buying the 165's!

Josh I think ur on a good path and anyone posting up stuff like 'this set up is the absolute best there is' is pure speculation. Im not trying to imply that a set up like the one Jperran posted isnt good, just dont buy into the 'best set up is this' posts.

I don't belive I stated it was the best, I said it has proven itself on the dyno and at the track over and over again, because it has. Some have success with the 185's, obviously you are one of them, others do not. Lots of combos work, I was only giving the one I like.

FTI+AFR
I'd tap it :thumb: :drive:

No... some make upwards of 325-345 RWHP. It depends on the requests of the customer. If they want performance over dyno numbers, they can build their project with that in mind. Not everyone lives and dies by big dyno numbers in their signature.
~ 250 on a Dynojet
306-310 engines can easily make 390-400 RWHP "naturally aspirated" if they so desire. It's all in the goals of the person who owns the vehicle and who builds the package. There are planty of examples of this, if you know where to look. (www.hardcore50.com)

However, at 3200 pounds, all an LX owner needs is about 290-300 RWHP, 8 inch slicks and a great driver to crack a high eleven. Nearly ten years ago we did 11.90's with 286 RWHP in an 88 LX. Stang regulars remember Bob Cosby's old black coupe.

Ed

So Bob Cosby has been around for a while huh? I remember seeing posts of his on LS1Tech about doing alot with a little. Dont get me wrong, I know its not all about dyno numbers, but more power usually equals more speed. I honestly think what I'm going to try to do is get a solid block (Mexican, Dart, or R302), a forged rotating assembly, and then build the heads and cam around a turbo kit. With a solid block, forged motor, and properly setup heads and cam I see no reason I cant get a turbo motor to support as much boost as I'd need it to for the power level/ET level I'm trying to achieve. Most likely I'll be going with more cubic inches on a 331 or 347 setup simply to get the most out of the setup so I wont have to rely soley on boost to make all the power that I want.

:chug: :hump: :cool: