Methanol injection questions
03-27-2006, 01:52 PM
#1
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 12,763
Methanol injection questions
I'm about to fire up a meth kit on the fiance's turbo car, but I've never done this before. I have NO idea where to start on how much alky is needed. Anyone have some guidelines?
This is on a 370cid motor, 9.3:1 compression, 76mm turbo, and and air/air intercooler up front. Right now the motor is tuned VERY conservatively -- 13 to 15 degrees of timing, 9 to 11 lbs. of boost, and around 11.8 to 12.2 AFR on 93 octane gasoline.
The kit is from FJO racing, and their software can map the flow based on pretty much any criteria you can think of (map vs tps vs rpm etc). Problem is, I'm looking at tables full of zeros
This is on a 370cid motor, 9.3:1 compression, 76mm turbo, and and air/air intercooler up front. Right now the motor is tuned VERY conservatively -- 13 to 15 degrees of timing, 9 to 11 lbs. of boost, and around 11.8 to 12.2 AFR on 93 octane gasoline.
The kit is from FJO racing, and their software can map the flow based on pretty much any criteria you can think of (map vs tps vs rpm etc). Problem is, I'm looking at tables full of zeros
03-28-2006, 08:22 AM
#2
Teching In
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 15
How is the car tuned...I mean do you have the software to tune the car? Reason I ask, if you use meth you are going to see the a/f ratio about 1 point richer. If you won't have a way to tune the car when you install the injection system I might suggest using straight water. You won't get quite the results you would with a meth/water mix, but still see improments in inlet temps.
I used straight water for 1 season in my car. Unfortunately, I didn't have the ability to log any of the passes I made w/ it.
The next season I used windshield washer fluid so I wouldn't have to mix the meth/water. It worked very well. My combo was a stock 4.6L DOHC motor w/ a non-intercooled Vortech with 11-12# of boost. On the 2 step I would see inlet temps close to 200° on a cool day. Once the injection would kick on they would start dropping, by the end of the track they would be as low as 94°. Pretty impressive in my mind.
I used straight water for 1 season in my car. Unfortunately, I didn't have the ability to log any of the passes I made w/ it.
The next season I used windshield washer fluid so I wouldn't have to mix the meth/water. It worked very well. My combo was a stock 4.6L DOHC motor w/ a non-intercooled Vortech with 11-12# of boost. On the 2 step I would see inlet temps close to 200° on a cool day. Once the injection would kick on they would start dropping, by the end of the track they would be as low as 94°. Pretty impressive in my mind.
03-28-2006, 11:32 AM
#3
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 12,763
I have everything needed to tune everything. Currently the stock PCM is controlling everything EXCEPT fueling -- that is handled by a piggybacked Megasquirt.
I'm actually not having trouble with inlet temps yet, in fact they stay nice and cool. The highest I've seen yet is ~160 degrees after beating it on the freeway for a while, but then again I'm only running ~10psi give or take (likes to climb at higher RPMs, wastegate dump tube is a little small).
My interest is mainly in making more power, and keeping the ring lands on the pistons where they belong
I've been instructed by FJO to run 50/50 water/meth, they swear by the results they've been getting. Since they have a fast streetable Camaro (as in, drives to the track, runs 8's, drives home) running this system, I tend to trust their opinions. The only thing I really don't have a handle on is HOW MUCH meth is needed, and how it affects the rest of the system.
My current knowledge of how this all works has me thinking this:
1. Reduce total advance at high load ranges to something very safe - ie. 4 degrees total advance.
2. Begin injecting meth over 4psi, and monitor all the sensors - wideband (switched to lambda mode), inlet temps, boost pressure, and knock sensors.
3. Bring timing up 0.5 degree at a time, until knock sensors see something.
4. Add more meth to those locations in the table
5. Repeat from step 3 until power plateaus or knock cannot be safely controlled.
Since the stock PCM is running ignition timing and only alters total advance with manifold pressures past 104 kPa based on RPM, I'm stuck with the same timing curve for every boost level. So, my thinking is that once the car is tuned, the max boost level is pretty much set in stone unless the PCM tune is also altered. I don't much have a problem with that, since there's only so much power that is usable on the street.
I'm actually not having trouble with inlet temps yet, in fact they stay nice and cool. The highest I've seen yet is ~160 degrees after beating it on the freeway for a while, but then again I'm only running ~10psi give or take (likes to climb at higher RPMs, wastegate dump tube is a little small).
My interest is mainly in making more power, and keeping the ring lands on the pistons where they belong
I've been instructed by FJO to run 50/50 water/meth, they swear by the results they've been getting. Since they have a fast streetable Camaro (as in, drives to the track, runs 8's, drives home) running this system, I tend to trust their opinions. The only thing I really don't have a handle on is HOW MUCH meth is needed, and how it affects the rest of the system.My current knowledge of how this all works has me thinking this:
1. Reduce total advance at high load ranges to something very safe - ie. 4 degrees total advance.
2. Begin injecting meth over 4psi, and monitor all the sensors - wideband (switched to lambda mode), inlet temps, boost pressure, and knock sensors.
3. Bring timing up 0.5 degree at a time, until knock sensors see something.
4. Add more meth to those locations in the table
5. Repeat from step 3 until power plateaus or knock cannot be safely controlled.
Since the stock PCM is running ignition timing and only alters total advance with manifold pressures past 104 kPa based on RPM, I'm stuck with the same timing curve for every boost level. So, my thinking is that once the car is tuned, the max boost level is pretty much set in stone unless the PCM tune is also altered. I don't much have a problem with that, since there's only so much power that is usable on the street.
03-31-2006, 06:18 PM
#4
TECH Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston/Alvin, TX
Posts: 3,531
Brian,
This probably doesn't help much, but I had the SMC kit on my Buick, and I just started on the highest setting and had it turn on at fairly low boost (10psi). From their, I observed my O2's and knock readings. O2's were high and knock was non existent. I slowly turned the the setting down until the O2's got a little low and knock occured. From that point I went up a hair until I got my O2's at the desired point and my knock at 0. Next, I adjusted the "turn on" point. I think it was around 14psi.
Is yours progressive? My SMC system wasn't. SMC now makes them progressive.
This probably doesn't help much, but I had the SMC kit on my Buick, and I just started on the highest setting and had it turn on at fairly low boost (10psi). From their, I observed my O2's and knock readings. O2's were high and knock was non existent. I slowly turned the the setting down until the O2's got a little low and knock occured. From that point I went up a hair until I got my O2's at the desired point and my knock at 0. Next, I adjusted the "turn on" point. I think it was around 14psi.
Is yours progressive? My SMC system wasn't. SMC now makes them progressive.
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